[HeY jOe]

Very well constructed post that UBER

Myself, well I never discuss religion or politics as it can get slightly "heavy", after saying that though everyone's posts are interesting & honest/fair thoughts

I used to be a forester & was removing a large tree in a front garden, some guy walked up the driveway & shouted "hello" (I was up in the tree), I acknowledged him & we got talkin' (me still in the tree). Turns out he was a Jehova, thing was he had a great "presence" & wasn't at all "creepy", he was just like the actor Brian Dennehy from the film Cocoon. He never once pushed his opinion, after about a twenty minite discussion we both went on our way (me further up the tree ), I said to him "to be honest I don't believe, although you are the first person I've ever listened to & kinda mystified by in years"....just a borin' story but it must have made an impression as I can still remember it (no easy task for me)

[gamma498]

As far as I'm concerned the bible is just another work of fiction, you may as well base your life on the story of Alice in Wonderland! There is no scientific proof that God doesn't exist but you believe the bible when it tells you that some geezer parted a sea to allow people to cross it and that a guy with long hair and a fan club got nailed to a cross and died but then came back to life and saved us all???? Hmmm....good sense of reality there!
I am an Athiest and find it really hard to see how people can believe in God but each to their own, it's their choice, I just don't like the fact that our lives are controlled because of someone elses beliefs. Thankfully as time goes on religion seems to losing it's sway on the way everyone has to live their lives.
My view is this, if there is a God, with all the horrendous things that happen in the world, why oh why should he be someone we praise? The God squad will say that God has a reason for everything, well if he exists he's got a twisted mind!
The various takes on who is God (i.e. different religions) IS the route of all evil, religion has caused nearly all the wars that ever happenned, nowadays it is maybe a bit different as money does play a huge part but in days of old it was always 'you must die coz my God's better than your God'. It makes me sick!
I've told my lad that it's up to him what he believes but that he should treat other people as he'd like them to treat him. If people did this then I don't think you could go far wrong.

[R31DY]

Exactly my thoughts Gamma. As far as I'm concerned THIS IS MY ONLY LIFE, so I make the most of it while I can. To me religion just gives people a false sense of hope, and tries to justify some of the "unexplainable" things that happen in the world. People are too afraid to face their own death, and to me it's very sad that people still can't accept that they will one day die....with nothing afterwards. I know it's hard to think of yourself as not being alive, but before you were born you weren't alive, and after you die you won't be alive either. I think too many people waste their lives beleiving they will become "eternal" if they are good during this life, well sorry, I don't buy it. Far too many people are religous because they are afraid of death and religion seems the obvious way to go for assurance. I would love to meet the people who "invented" the bible, just to tell them to keep their fictional stories to themselves, and to tell them how many people they will make waste their only life, wating for something that isn't going to happen.

@ Uber: You seem to know most of the science about how the world was created (with their being "dark matter" and all), yet you still beleive "Heaven and Hell", now to me thats one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Theres no evidence of either "afterlife", but I try not to base my views on science as I like to base my views on my own experience and knowledge, rather than beleiving everything I hear because I want to justify why I am here.

[xIFallenAngelIx]

Nice topic Curve

I completely agree that religion is the main cause of conflicts in the world, which is completely contradictive and against everything that religion is meant to stand. I teach R.E so i have to 'come across' with pretty open views on the matter because you can't influence or question beliefs but the problem with religious books is that they can be interpreted how every you like so unfortunately people use them to give reasons for their actions - and at the end of the day its down to the people - and not a higher being.

i'd love to believe in something - just so that were not alone and so theres somewhere to go after weve finished our business here but i don't think i do - and if i did i wouldn't belive that that higher being was so far up his/her own "naughty word alert" that they would want us to worship them in particular buildings cos they are meant to be everywhere aren't they? And if we are here because of them they wouldn't want us to waste hours of our lives worshiping them either they'd just want us to be happy, honest and kind people which i hope i am

I think if i had to choose a religion it would be the Buddhist one as it seems to have similar views to my own - a religion doesn't make the person - the person makes the religion ....

So there you go my own little view of religion and a very mixed up view it is

Edit: Holy books are way too similar - every religion has come from another apart from the first - because someone has made themselves out to be more special than they really are and invented a new one from the ideas someone else had already had - plagerism (sp) really!- We have con men now and there were con men then its just that some are better than others

This post has been edited by animusmessorpink: 02 September 2006 - 01:50 PM

[R31DY]

You know what, I think maybe David Blaine is Jesus re-encarnated......or maybe its Derren Brown! Blaine has turned water into money, read peoples minds, twisted limbs into distorted places then put them back......to name just a few. Derren Brown can touch people without being within 10 feet of them, make people weak (10 wrestlers couldn't pick up a little girl ) he has drawn places while blindfolded and not knowing his location......to name a few more. So if these guys did this a few thousand years ago.....do ya reckon they'd be in the bible? YOU BET YOUR LIFE . The point I'm making is that people understand a lot more about how the human body and mind works nowadays.....and also when they're just being tricked. Ubers point about "most people who don't abide by the bible do it because they are already breaking it's rules" isn't correct. I don't drink alcohol, I don't use drugs, I'm not gay and I've never cheated, I could (and probably do) live a life that would follow the bible letter by letter......I just don't beleive the motivation behind my actions should be determined by a book. I treat people how I want to be treated becasue I think they have the right to make the most of THEIR ONLY LIFE as much as I do......not because if I don't, God won't let me into his "mile high club", to me that sounds like a very selfish and saddening way to live a life.

[Uberjim]

I Reidy I, on Sep 2 2006, 06:45 AM, said:

@ Uber: You seem to know most of the science about how the world was created (with their being "dark matter" and all), yet you still beleive "Heaven and Hell", now to me thats one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Theres no evidence of either "afterlife", but I try not to base my views on science as I like to base my views on my own experience and knowledge, rather than beleiving everything I hear because I want to justify why I am here.

Reidy, that doesn't even make sense. I believe the science, but the science has no explanation past a certain point. Naturalists want to use scientific laws to describe everything up to the point of light and dark matter but past that certain point want to break those same laws (matter can neither be created nor destroyed for example). They want us to believe that the dark matter and light just happened with no rhyme or reason. I believe that dark matter and light happened spontaneously from nothing just like they do, but the difference is I actually have a reason. God. The science makes sense after this point.

Reidy, I hope you have a better arguement than this. If you are going to gamble with your soul, I would hope you would base your choice on more than "my views on my own experience and knowledge". At least do yourself a favor and research it and get fact to back up your feelings. That way you can be confident about your choice.

When trying to decide if religion was for me, I went through a scientific/logical process. I started with the view that the bible was just a history book, not even looking at the religious teachings yet. If the bible were historically accurate, that would lend against the argument that the book is fiction. If any of you guys have read the DaVinci Code by Dan Brown, this is how they ripped that book to shreds and discredited his claim that "most" of the description and history in the book was true. If you compare the New Testament (it is easier to use this book than the Old Testament because we have better records on this time) to documented historical/archeological records, it holds up. In fact, nobody has ever been able to find a historical flaw from the Bible as a historical book. Such things as when God sent a plague of locust to destroy crops in one story of the bible. Historical records show that in this year that there was actually non-religious record of a plague that destroyed almost all of the crops in this area. Comparison after comparison, it holds up as a historical text. After you analyze all 20,000 lines of text in the New Testament, only 40 lines are in doubt. That amounts to about 400 words. Moreover, these are things such as the order of things happening or the addition or exclusion of certain things. For example, it would be equivalent to saying that Jim and his wife had a Ford Explorer that they had many problems with and finally had enough and went and bought a new Acura MDX (black in color) last week. Well the truth is that all of it is true except the color of the MDX. It is actually gold in color. Does that difference take away from the overall meaning of my story? Of course not. In the end, these 40 lines that are in doubt have no impact on the overall teachings of the book. This means that the New Testament of the Bible is about 99.5% accurate. One man couldn't make a book that was this accurate (Dan Brown). What are the chances that over 20+ authors could make a combined text with this level of accuracy. Very, very, very small. Definitely hold up as a history book. What to do now?

Well combine that with the probability that the prophecies predicted in the Old Testament hundreds of years before they actually happened is zero without some kind of divine guidance. It seems like an easy choice. I can base my rejection of God on my "feelings", or I can base my acceptance of God on fact and statistical evidence.

Gamma, to answer your question about why bad things happen in this world and we can actually say there is a God. God gave man free will (the ability to choose). That way we were not forced to love Him, but rather to follow him through our own choice, which means so much more. With the gift of free will also came the choices of man to choose between good and evil. Some choose one way, some choose the other. The choice is that of man not of God. I don't buy the whole "God has a reason for everything" bit. God created the heavens and the Earth, stepped back, and let man choose his fate. In my mind it is a totally hands off approach by God. God doesn't "let" bad things happen to some and choose to help others. That isn't how he works. Bad things happen to everyone. Some more that others. That is a shame, but it happens. Children get raped, wives get murdered, etc. but these are not choices of God. God didn't choose to let this happen to you and choose to not let it happen to another. They are done by the free will of man. Free will is a wonderful gift and a horrible curse. Kind of a paradox.

Let me make a request, please. Disprove what I have said with scientific fact or historical evidence. I can argue that a lot easier than "I feel like..." or "My aunt sally said...". If you do this, I will disprove you every time. If you have questions, that is a different story.

This post has been edited by Uberjim: 02 September 2006 - 03:52 PM

[R31DY]

I'm not a scientist Jim, are you? Do YOU YOURSELF have any evidence (scientific or otherwise) that the bible is true and that there is a God? You are still depending on other peoples information to make your decisions, its your life.........so why are you letting other people decide what you do? Of course things in the bible happened, but didnt david copperfield walk through the great wall of china? Damn, now thats more impressive than a plague of locust. I could always write a biography and state that I made the title wave that killed hunderds in asia.........well it happened didn't it? Who says I didn't do it?

[HeY jOe]

gulp

Out of my depth in here

[Rameares]

Like most people that have posted in this topic i don't follow any religon but if i had to put one down it would be church of england as i was baptised as an infant and cristianity happens to be what those in my family that do follow religon belive in.

My opinion about religon is very simmiliar to those of others in this topic that it was created for the same reason we have laws today it was to keep order but what i'd also add to this idea is that religion was created by people who wanted power as fear is one of the most powerfull tools for a small group to control a larger one. I belive that the leaders of relgions are scared to lose there power due to the large number of peole that claim to have seen documentation that disproves certain religous beliefs kept under lock and key by those it threaterns to undermine.

As for religion being the cause of all conflict i once belived this untill i actually thought about it there have been just as much conflict over material goods and land.

Someone also mentioned that religous books can be inteprated in many ways. To see evidence of this all you have to do is look at current events all caused by a small group manipulating a religon to push there beliefs on to other people.

As we gain knowledge it becomes harder to follow blindly, how do you argue a case without any evidence/ disputable evidence aginst a case that has undisputable evidence you can see and touch.

Now for somthing slightly less serious Jedi is apparently reconized as a religon due to enough poeple putting it down on the last census. either a half or third of all americans don't belive in dinasours as it contridicts the story of creation.

[ShagDoubt]

Right, that's religion covered - who's up for Politics.

[gamma498]

Uberjim, on Sep 2 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

Gamma, to answer your question about why bad things happen in this world and we can actually say there is a God. God gave man free will (the ability to choose). That way we were not forced to love Him, but rather to follow him through our own choice, which means so much more. With the gift of free will also came the choices of man to choose between good and evil. Some choose one way, some choose the other. The choice is that of man not of God. I don't buy the whole "God has a reason for everything" bit. God created the heavens and the Earth, stepped back, and let man choose his fate. In my mind it is a totally hands off approach by God. God doesn't "let" bad things happen to some and choose to help others. That isn't how he works. Bad things happen to everyone. Some more that others. That is a shame, but it happens. Children get raped, wives get murdered, etc. but these are not choices of God. God didn't choose to let this happen to you and choose to not let it happen to another. They are done by the free will of man. Free will is a wonderful gift and a horrible curse. Kind of a paradox.

Sorry Jim but I fail to see how the tsunami was caused by the 'will of man', it was just something that happenned. But if there is a God why praise him. If there is a God why did he let the tsunami take place, surely if he made the universe he could have done something about a little wave, or was he too tired after all that creating millions of years ago? The Christians will say that it happenned because of God's will coz the chances are that most of the people that perished weren't Christians, so that's why they died, that'll teach 'em to follow the wrong God, eh?
I'm sorry, but if there is a God, he's a "naughty word alert" and deserves to be ignored.
As for politics, I'm with Billy Connolly, anyone who has the desire to be a politician should be banned from being one! Just as big a liars as the rabii's and priests! By the way Shag, trust you to get the big spoon out!

[xXN1GH7M4R3Xx]

Stuart, on Sep 1 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

They say religion is the starting cause of all wars

IMO That isn't true, i think the cause of wars is greed. Unfortunately the conflicts in society and religion involve a lot of greed and thus mean religion is causing war to some extent.

[Uberjim]

I Reidy I, on Sep 2 2006, 11:05 AM, said:

I'm not a scientist Jim, are you? Do YOU YOURSELF have any evidence (scientific or otherwise) that the bible is true and that there is a God? You are still depending on other peoples information to make your decisions, its your life.........so why are you letting other people decide what you do? Of course things in the bible happened, but didnt david copperfield walk through the great wall of china? Damn, now thats more impressive than a plague of locust. I could always write a biography and state that I made the title wave that killed hunderds in asia.........well it happened didn't it? Who says I didn't do it?

Reidy, I'm not a scientist, I'm an engineer. However, we do take many of the same types of classes such as those dealing with astrophysics. I know a bit about physical reactions in space and the laws that constrain them, not including my personal research. I am not a statistician either, but I have taken many classes on statistics and have taught college level courses on the subject. I would say that I am fairly educated in both of these areas. As for your question about depending on others information to make my decisions...multiple studies have been conducted in attempts to discredit the Bible as a historical reference and all have failed. ALL. No, I haven't traveled to Jerusalem and proven these facts for myself. I also have never myself proven that if you jump off a 20-story building you will probably never live to tell about it. I have also never proven myself that if I hold a gun to my head and pull the trigger that I will probably have big problems. I depend on the information of others to know the outcome of these events. Your only real physical argument seems to be David Copperfield...? You seem to agree about the bible being a valid historical reference, so now how do you explain the prophecies (300 of them) coming true about Jesus that were made hundreds of years before his time. I don't want to change you Reidy. Don't believe something because I said it. Similarly, don't have a belief just because you "feel" that way. That is uneducated. You don't sound uneducated to me. My only challenge to you is find me some good concrete evidence that disproves what the facts say and we can have a good debate. The research route will be harder than just sitting in here telling me about what great things David Copperfield has done, but in the end you will be educated about your decision, whatever that decision may be.

As for your you "little wave" segment in your biography, Reidy, if you told me that the "little wave" hit Asia on September 12, 2009 and killed 12,000, and it happened exactly that way, that would be the equivalent to what the Old Testament said about Jesus along with many other events. Now predict 299 more tsunamis with all of the information listed above and have them all come true and you will have matched what the Old Testament did with Jesus alone. I will be looking forward to your biography.

Gamma, I'm not even about to pretend I know what Gods reasoning is. I will say that if the "hands-off" approach that I stated earlier is correct, these things happen because the earth was created as a constantly changing environment. These things are a result of this possibly. It may also be a result of man's impact on the global environment. I really don't know Gamma. There are people who study this type of thing for a living and still don't know the answer to that. I will say this. Take a wife for example. The first scenario is that you live on a deserted island with no human contact for your whole lives. Would she ever cheat on you? Is she totally loyal to your relationship? She never has had any temptation, so how do you know what she would do? On the other hand, you have a wife and live in Houston, Texas and when she goes out with her girlfriends, is constantly hit on. She always lets the suitors know that she is happily married. Is she loyal to your relationship? Yes. She has proven it. I don't think God does things to us to test us. Modern society and nature have that one covered without His help. But the temptations we face and the tribulations we incur strengthen our relationship with God (if we look to Him). I know this doesn't really answer your question Gamma. If you ever get a chance to speak to God, let me know what he says on this one.

Regardless of what your faith is, there will be no concrete evidence to 100% prove that faith. That is why it is called faith. Naturalists/Humanists have faith that all matter in the universe and the light energy that powers it just appeared without any rhyme or reason. Christians have faith in the word of God and that He created everything. There is not 100% evidence to support any line of belief. Just be educated enough to know why you believe something and don't base your life on a "feeling". I have very little respect for people who believe something without having facts to support their beliefs. That goes for Christians too. There is nothing more anoying to me that having someone tell me that they are a Christian but have no real reason as to why they choose to be Christian.

This post has been edited by Uberjim: 03 September 2006 - 12:55 AM

[R31DY]

The point I'm making is that while the history of the bible may be factual with regards to its historical events, it can't prove WHY things happened. The points I made before about how easily people were tricked 2 thousand years ago compared to now is the most valid. Why don't we beleive David Blaine can levitate? Did Copperfield really walk through the wall? Damn, if we were that gullible nowadays we'd have either made them gods or have them burnt at the stake. I'm sure it wasn't hard to trick people 2 thousand years ago into beleiveing all of these rediculous fantasies, but how could we treat them any differently to the 2 guys I mentioned above? Surely they're on the same level? Just because a generation of people (a long time ago) beleived something doesn't mean we should. Until you can dissprove Copperfield went through the great wall (hes even recorded it, now thats proof) I am going to prey at my David Blaine alter, goodday

edit: your last comment about not using your feelings to decide what you beleive was quite scary for me to read. Your feelings are your only reason to be alive in my opinion, if you don't feel love, or pain, or anything else to aid you in your decisions then what is the point of being alive? really..........

[Uberjim]

What I meant about the feelings part was not to base every decision you make on them. If you do, you will make a lot of bad choices. I don't know much about David Copperfield, but I will check into him. In turn, you can check into the 300 prophecies made about Jesus and prove to me that their predictions don't match historical records hundreds of years after their time. Suddenly my job seems a little easier.

This post has been edited by Uberjim: 03 September 2006 - 01:33 AM

[R31DY]

You don't know much about David Blaine ey.....now I understand why you would beleive the bible, you need to watch more cable TV I'm not sure about these profecies made about Jesus though......I might write a few predictions myself the stick "writtin in 1965" at the end of it, no-one'll dispute it

Anyways, it's half 2 in the morning, I need some sleep. I will be here to laugh at the bible some more tomorrow though

edit: I love your avvy by the way..........and there was me thinking you didn't beleive in evolution

[xIFallenAngelIx]

Notstrodamus (sp) wrote a lot of prophacies as well but no one formed a religion on the basis that he was divine ..... You make your prophecies vague enough and they come true ... shall i try

Urm... it will snow a few weeks after christmas

anyone want to join my religion it has ace benifits you only have to work on tuesdays, thursdays and every other monday - pm me

Edit - oh yes if i get 5 members and you all come to my house i can escape council tax cos then its a place of worship - have one member already

This post has been edited by animusmessorpink: 03 September 2006 - 08:59 AM

[R31DY]

And this is coming from an RE teacher, love it

ps. count me in!

[funkfish]

religion is just another money making machine. has been since day 1.

[Uberjim]

Animusmessorpink, I guess you are right; the prophecies were a little vague. I mean anyone can say hey in 100 years there will be a child named Jesus born to mother Mary and father Joseph who will be Born in Bethlehem and raised in Jerusalem. He will work as a carpenter, proclaim he is the Son of God, be betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver, which will lead to his crucifiction for his teachings when he is 33 which will be 493 and one-half years after the rebuilding of Jerusalem. He will be hung on a cross next to a thief and a murderer. Upon his death, he will be placed into a tomb and will be resurrected on the third day (if you don't believe in the resurrection, then insert "his body will be missing on the third day"). I hadn't thought this all the way through. Thanks for opening my eyes to the vagueness of these prophecies. Suddenly "it will snow a few weeks after Christmas" seems like a much more miraculous statement.

This post has been edited by Uberjim: 03 September 2006 - 03:42 PM